War Handwavium

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1. drachefly | 30-Aug-10 at 9:00 am | Permalink

   Were you posting on the Whatever as Greg? (I recall your handle used to be Greg London) I find it somewhat ironic that despite your building the equality arts dojo, it seems like every time you actually talk about equality over there and issue a long statement about how carefully considered speech should be, the way you present the idea starts a fight. I can feel the passion in your writing. I understand what you’re saying. But somehow, kaboom. Nearly every time, it seems.

   Maybe a third-order correction needs to be applied for cases when you’re talking about talking? Because you’ve thought about the first and second-order cases a lot – it’s what the dojo is for. The advice is good. You speak with authority on the subject. But somehow you get into trouble with those on your side that you’re trying to give unsolicited tactical advice to.

   That you did not issue a personal attack did not mean that your communication was as effective as it could have been.

   Any thoughts on that?

2. Greg | 22-Oct-10 at 10:06 am | Permalink

   I think the problems occur as long as i don’t have a handle on the metaphor i’m looking for. I think with privilege i just figured out the thing i take issue with isn’t ‘privilege’. The thing im having a problem with is the unstated goal that ‘privilege’ is trying to achieve. I just figured out this morning that some people approach equality as if the dominant group needs to be taken down a notch.

   I don’t believe that.

   I think if everyone enjoyed equality that everyone would be better off than they are now.

   See this.mornings post about waterline of equality.

   Um. That would also explain something i’ve had a feeling about when discrimination conversations come up. Sometimes there are.people who seem to have implicit in their message that no whites really want equality because that would mean they would have to give up something. Some benefit. Any benefit. And people who think white people don’t want equality because they’d have to give something up are invariably the people who try to guiltbat white people into doing it.

   So if charlie thinks i oppose equality because i wish to continue to enjoy the grand and wonderous.life i live off.the backs of minorities, then i can see how they would see any attempt by me to disagree as proof that i want to maintain my plantation and other perks.

   If you are faced with someone who thinks whites resist equality because they’re selfish, then how do you talk with them so they don’t go ballistic?

   I think the waterline of equality is a metaphor that points to the basic issue. If alice has $5 and bob has $105 and if you think equalty can only be achieved if everyone has $70, then you’re going to look at bob wiith an adversarial eye. Somehow you’ve got to convince him or browbeat him or guilttrip him onto giving up$ 35. And you will view any protest by bob as nothing more than a smokescreen attempt by him to try to keep his money.

   I think that’s an accurate portrayal of at least some interactions i’ve had. But i didn’t sort it out until this morning. I don’t know how anyone could talk through that scenario unless they know that’s the scenario they’re in. And i didn’t know myself until just a few hours ago.

   I will ponder it some more and see if i can come up with something clearer and shorter.

   Other replies will be on waterline thread.

3. drachefly | 22-Oct-10 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

   Yeah, but I was talking about this thread…

   http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/08/27/thought-experiment-how-do-you-react-when-you-witness-racism/

   This time was a lot tamer than the mauling you were subjected to that time, probably because this was a pretty mellow thread rather than the naturally contentious one back then.

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